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No4 MkI; No4 Mk1/2 Mk1/3 Mk2. To look at wrist markings where the serial numbers. Throughout its many years of useful service the Lee Enfield has had. Long Branch (Canada) serial numbers incorporate an 'L' in the. Update of the 1992 'Lee-Enfield Story' is devoted to Serial. Mail Ian Skennerton with.. By Long Branch Arsenal in Canada and Savage. Last Ditch MQC: Beginner's Guide to Buying a Lee Enfield submitted 3. On No.4’s the serial number will be on the left side of the wrist, and sometimes on the left receiver wall. RSAF Enfield - SMLE Mk.III and Mk.III* - ENFIELD, EFD, D (with a little line in it), UE.
Ok, so I want to start off by saying that this is simply an entry level guide to buying these rifles (hence “Beginner's Guide”). I am going over nothing particularly comprehensive, nor will I really go into the history of anything. I also won’t really be going over the less common variants, such as the Long Lees, early carbines, and sniper rifles, since this is a beginner’s guide. I also have very little experience with buying Long Lees and whatnot, so I do not feel like I have the credibility to discuss the matter.
Some basics
First thing to cover is basic fundamentals of purchasing a used gun. You know, check the bore, the condition of the wood, overall condition of the metal, how the action is, and bring a dummy round to make sure the chamber is how it should be.
Next thing I want to address is one of the basic Enfield buying rules that /u/Caedus_Vao taught me, and that is the $300 Rule: If it’s in good condition, matches, $300 is a solid deal. If it’s a tad bit more, keep in mind that a lot of people selling used guns (individuals or dealers) are willing to negotiate on shit like this. If they won’t wiggle, and if the Enfield is nice and matching, don’t be afraid to pay more than $300. I recently purchased two Lee Enfields, a Fazakerly No.4 Mk.2, and a Savage No.4 Mk.I. I paid $375 and $500, respectively, but I feel I did well on those purchases, especially on the latter.
I always consider nice old guns as investments, assuming you buy them for the right price. You may not buy them for that purpose, but they are no longer being made, and there is always a market for them, so the prices are only going to go up. As /u/R_Shackleford would tell you, even something as cheap as a Mosin would be a decent investment, seeing a 50-75% gain in value in the past three or four years. The price you buy the gun at and the price it could be potentially sold at are two things I always consider when buying a C&R gun, which is why I pretty much only buy my guns below market value. Buying at market value isn’t a bad thing either, since like I said, prices on milsurps will only rise, but if you sell within the year, don’t expect an immediate return. Also, who doesn’t like to buy things at a lower price? Buying overpriced items however, is something that I avoid at all costs, and you shouldn’t buy overpriced shit, whether you want a shooter, or if you want to collect/invest in stuff. There will always be a better deal somewhere, so be patient.
Be patient and don’t be afraid to walk. Don’t rush yourself into buying a Lee Enfield because you really want one and demand the immediate satisfaction. You will regret that. Take your time, do your research, know what you want, and shop around. If you’re trying to negotiate with someone and they won’t budge, and the price is more than you would like to pay, just say no; you aren’t losing out on anything for doing so.
Matching serial numbers
Matching serial numbers is always a plus. For someone very new to the milsurp market, a lot of guns like Mosins, various Mausers and clones, Lee Enfields, Lugers, etc, will have certain parts with serial numbers that should match the receiver’s serial number. On Lee Enfields, there are various places to look:
The receiver. On No.4’s the serial number will be on the left side of the wrist, and sometimes on the left receiver wall. On SMLE’s, the serial number will be on the front and right side of the receivers, by the barrel.
The rear of the bolt handle.
On SMLEs, the nosecap will be serial’d as well.
The magazine. Sometimes, magazines were not numbered from the factory, especially on No.4’s, so if you don’t see a serial number on one, don’t panic. The magazine serial number will either be on the spine of the magazine, or the bottom of the magazine.
The foreend will sometimes be numbered as well, but there are plenty of them that don’t have numbers. Like the magazines, especially on No.4’s, having no number on the wood is fine.
Barrels will often be serial’d as well. Sometimes they don’t, and will just have the barrel manufacturer and year on them.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with non matching rifles, but from a standpoint of collector’s value, they don’t carry much weight. I would never pay more than $275 for a non matching rifle, although if it was the magazine, I don’t make too big of a fuss. A No.5 Mk.I is the one exception I will make, but even then, I probably won’t pay more than $350 for one. If do just want a shooter or a woods gun, a non matching rifle will be fine. Non matching is also a great point to use when negotiating price.
Manufacturers
There are many many manufacturers that you will potentially run into, and you can check these by looking on the right or left side of the wrist, or the left receiver wall. Mk.III and Mk.III*’s will typically tell you on the right side of the wrist who made it. On rifles like No.4 and No.5’s, you may be left up to manufacturer codes/markings, so I’ll give you those. I’ll also give you what manufacturer made what (within the limits of this post).
RSAF Enfield - SMLE Mk.III and Mk.III* - ENFIELD, EFD, D (with a little line in it), UE
ROF Fazakerly - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.2, Mk.½, Mk.⅓, No.5 Mk.I - ROF(F), FY, F, UF
ROF Maltby - No.4 Mk.I - ROFM, OFM, RM, M
Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - BSA Co, BSA & M Co, M47A
BSA Shirley - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.½, No.5 Mk.I - B, M47, M47C, 85B, BS, UB
London Small Arms Co (LSA) - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - LSA Co.
Longbranch - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I* - LONGBRANCH, L with a B in it, L prefix serial number, C with a little A in it
Savage Arms Co - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.I* - S, S in a box, C prefix serial number
Lithgow - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III* - LITHGOW, MA
Ishapore - SMLE Mk.III, Mk.III*, 7.62 2A - RFI, GRI, IS, ID - I do want to say something about Ishapores. There seems to be this stigma against Ishapore rifles, and how they are allegedly lower quality than others. I would like to say that is blatantly false. Pre independence rifles (pre-1947) were all subject to strict British manufacturing standards and quality control, and even post independence, the quality control from the factory and government were very good. They may look hideous because of all of the suncorite (thick black paint that looks like tar) slathered on the rifles to protect them from India’s environment, but they are every bit as good as their British counterparts.
Pakistan Ordnance Factory - No.4 Mk.I, Mk.2 - POF
So now, at last, I’ll go over the models, and pricing.
Lee Enfield No 4 Mk1 Parts
Most SMLE’s will look like this, with the full mannlicher style stock, the bulldog esque nose cap, and the rear sight protectors.
Actual Mk.IIIs are actually pretty hard to find now, or at least examples with the Mk.III features, and have not been updated to Mk.III* spec. An original and true Mk.III will have four key features that will distinguish it from a Mk.III*: magazine cutoff, volley sights, a rear sight adjustable for windage, and a stacking swivel on the nose cap. Rear sights adjustable for windage are pretty rare, as are volley sights, as those were the first two features to get scrapped during war time. I wouldn’t say magazine cutoffs are exactly rare, but they are fairly uncommon. Nose caps machined for stacking swivels really aren’t uncommon, and they are sometimes even featured on Mk.III*’s.
For a Mk.III with any ONE of those features (except the stacking swivel), I would pay $350-400 (kinda low), assuming it’s matching, and in decent condition. For any combination of those parts, or all of them on a rifle, a rifle should be fetching $500+, again, condition pending. Of course, for a Mk.III with none of those features, it has just as much value as a Mk.III*, so $300 rule.
No magazine cutoff, no windage adjustable rear sight, no volley sights, and maybe you’ll find a stacking swivel. These are exceedingly more common than Mk.III’s. Pretty bland. Check condition, check to see if numbers match, $300 rule, but I wouldn’t mind doing $350 for a nice one.
For both Mk.III and Mk.III*s, you may find wire wrapped rifles intended for launching rifle grenades, and those MAY fetch more than regular SMLEs, going for $350-400, but still apply the $300 rule if possible. More if the grenade launching cup comes with it.
You’ll see these rifles fairly often out there, probably more so than an SMLE (at least in my experience). These are most commonly identified by having “No.4 Mk.I” written on the left wall of the receiver, the receiver mounted rear sight, usually having a large battle aperture, and an elevation adjustable smaller aperture (200-1300yds), the exposed end of the barrel, and a bolt release tab under the rear sight on the right side of the receiver. Most No.4 rifles will typically look like this.
One of the more notable things you should be looking for is a milled Mk.I micrometer rear sight. They are much better looking, more precise, and resemble a greater care for quality in No.4’s. You’ll usually see these in early war and post war rifles. Here is a picture from Ian Skennerton’s book to help you identify the other shitty stamped sights you will find..
You may also run into two different types of barrels: a Mk.I and a Mk.II barrel. The Mk.I is the typical five groove Enfield barrel, and the Mk.II is the two groove bore. People like to bad mouth the Mk.II for being inferior to the Mk.I, but the Mk.II was tested with Mk.VII ball, and it was determined that the accuracy with the standard issue Mk.VII was effectively identical the the Mk.I barrel. There is nothing wrong with either. If someone like /u/CoyoteBrown says otherwise, call him a faggot, especially if it’s /u/CoyoteBrown. Another nice thing to have a No.4 Mk.I is the GRIPZONE™ on the lower handguard, being largely an early war feature.
If you see a Savage or Longbranch No.4 Mk.I, and you can get it for <$700, you fucking buy it. Savage only made about 120k, and Longbranch about 7-8k. These are rare and desirable rifles. If you’re lucky, most dumbasses won’t be able to tell, or won’t give a shit about the significance/rarity, of a Savage or LB No.4 Mk.I over a Mk.I*, so if you do see one for sale, try to play it dumb and snag that bitch.
$300 rule applies, but you’re going to be cutting it close. People will typically sell these for $300-400, and if you’re paying $400+, it better be a pristine fucking No.4 Mk.I.
These rifles were only produced by Savage Arms and Longbranch Arsenal. As the * would suggest, the Mk.I* was a cost cutting rifle that was adopted due to the lower cost and shorter manufacturing time. These rifles are easiest identified by “No.4 Mk.I*” being stamped on the left side of the receiver wall, just like where No.4 Mk.I would have its markings. Savages will typically have a C prefix serial number, and Longbranches will typically have an L prefix serial. Mk.I*’s also have a cutout in the bolt guide rails to remove the bolt, and lack the bolt release tab beneath the rear sight. These rifles will also usually have shitty stamped sights, and lack the GRIPZONE™.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with Mk.I*’s, but the simple truth is that collector’s value is not that high for these. Most will typically sell (and rightfully so) in the $300 ballpark, so use that rule.
The biggest between these rifles, and the Mk.I series is that the trigger is hung from the receiver instead of the trigger guard. This helped alleviate some accuracy issues in the rifles. You’ll usually be able to tell a Mk.2 from a Mk.I by the screw that goes across the rear of the stock from end to end. Mk.½’s are Mk.I’s that were updated to the hung trigger, and Mk.⅓’s are Mk.I*’s that were updated to the hung trigger. With both those rifles, you’ll typically see the original manufacturer stamp on the left side of the receiver being crossed out and the new designation stamped on it.
These rifles will typically have the five groove barrels and milled rear sights. Furniture will usually either be beech or walnut, and I really think the light blonde beech wood contrasts the heavy black paint really well on these rifles.
Mk.2 and Mk.½ pricing should be very similar to Mk.I pricing, but Mk.2’s tend to be in better condition than Mk.I and Mk.½’s, so they will usually sell for more. In fact, most Mk.2’s I’ve seen tend to be in absolutely fabulous condition, looking like they’ve never been used (and they probably weren’t, or at least that heavily).
Continues in comment section
This is a discussion on Value of a Enfield Mod 4 Mk I? within the Collectors forums, part of the Firearm Forum category; I have an extra Lee Enfield that I have had for over ten years, shot it a few times at a range, then kept it ...
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| November 8th, 2012, 05:17 PM | #1 |
Location: Central Nebraska | Value of a Enfield Mod 4 Mk I? I have an extra Lee Enfield that I have had for over ten years, shot it a few times at a range, then kept it in the safe. It is the top gun in this picture: It is a US PROPERTY Savage Lend Lease from 1943. It appears stock at first glance, numbers match, but research showed that the stock is not quite correct; it is a couple years and one style newer than what Savage put on it. Plus a previous owner began 'restoration' and sanded all the markings off the stock as well as the bluing off the nose cap. I found the correct Savage stock in England (funny, that!) for a reasonable price & cheap shipping, but not sure how much I want to get it back to perfect original. Yes, I know, the sling is NOT correct; have no idea what it is off of! Took it to work and showed it around, a friend was very interested. Priced it $250, he was interested, but had just bought an $800 gun and had a baby. I dropped the price to $225 and put it on a garage sale, but was not advertised. Since dropped it to $200 for the guy at work, but he still doesn't have the money. Is the price right? Low, high? DISCLAIMER: I am NOT trying to sell it here; I don't want to go through the hassle of shipping a gun. Just want some feedback. Thanks! |
| November 8th, 2012, 06:43 PM | #2 |
Location: Albuquerque | I used to have a Mk 4 No 1 and I wish I never sold it! I'd snatch it up from you for $200 in a heartbeat! PM me if you decide that you would be willing to sell and ship! |
| November 9th, 2012, 04:55 PM | #3 |
Location: Hill Country of Texas | Do the serial numbers on the bolt handle and stock socket match? What other markings are on the receiver - 1942 or later, etc. and any 'S' stamped small parts would indicate the parts are original Savage issue. It appears to have an elevation adjustable rear sight and, if so, it is most likely stamped FTR with a two digit date indicating it went through an armory update which would explain the later issue stock. I have two Savage No. 4s - one is configured as it came from the factory with the original flip two position rear sight and the other has been 'FTRd. and has the elevation adjustable sight: No. 4 Savage Mk I* as issued in 1944: According to the serial number this rifle was manufactured in 1943. The serial numbers stamped on the bolt and stock socket matach and all the marked small parts and bayonet are stamped with the Savage S. I paid just under $100 dollars for it across the counter at J&G Sales in Prescot, Arizona, back in the early 1980s. No. 4 Mk I Savage with adjustable rear sight: The Weedon Royal Ordnance Depot stamp on this rifle indicates that it probably went through the FTR work at that depot. The manufacture date of 1942 is stamped on the receiver and all serial numbers on this rifle match. The stock was stamped with the same serial number sometime during its history. I paid $180 to an individual at a flea market for this rifle 7 years ago . If the serial numbers on the bolt and stock socket match on your rifle, your asking price of $225 seems quite reasonable considering the stock and nose cap has been sanded. Someone looking for a good candidate for restoration may pay more. |
| November 9th, 2012, 05:50 PM | #4 |
Location: Central Nebraska | Thanks. The bottom gun in my picture was my first high-powered rifle I bought when I was 15 (40 years ago) for $65. When I got this one 10 years ago it was priced at $165. I had a Norinco SKS tricked out with a folding black stock & 30 round magazines. Had $250 in it, traded it straight across for the Enfield. I have since picked up a bayonet for the Enfield. The really neat thing about the bayonet is that there are numbers stamped on the bayonet that match the last three numbers of my serial number! Don't think it is a Savage bayonet, though. |
| November 9th, 2012, 06:31 PM | #5 |
Location: Hill Country of Texas | Here is a closeup of the markings on my Savage Bayonet: The markings read No.4 MkII over a S in a square. You can find more information about markings on your rifles by clicking on: Lee Enfield Rifle Markings Last edited by blackhawkfan; November 9th, 2012 at 06:46 PM. |
| November 10th, 2012, 01:47 PM | #6 |
Former Hoadpiler Location: Washington State | If you compare the serial number on the bolt make sure you look under the bolt handle and not on the face of the bolt handle. They often force matched the bolts when they were FTR'd. |
| November 10th, 2012, 04:37 PM | #7 | |
Location: Hill Country of Texas |
Serial Number on the rear face of the bolth handle of my 1944 No. 4 Mk I* My two SMLEs have bolts with serial numbers that don't match the rifle, but the numbers are stamped on the rear face of the bolt with no indication of serial numbers having originally been stamped on the bottom of the bolt. Only my Eddystone P14 Enfield has a serial number stamped on the top face of the bolt handle and a struck out serial number stamped on the bottom face of the bolt handle. |
| November 10th, 2012, 04:42 PM | #8 | |
Former Hoadpiler Location: Washington State |
The rifles you have with the serial number on the back have they been FTR'd? |
| November 10th, 2012, 06:38 PM | #9 |
Former Hoadpiler Location: Washington State | I just checked the serial number on my No 5 and its on the back. I wonder if they stopped doing it on the bottom on the No 4's? I'll check all of my No 1's and 4's in the morning. |
| November 11th, 2012, 07:19 AM | #10 | |
Location: Hill Country of Texas |
The remaining two No. 1s, two No. 4s, and No. 5 in my collection have no markings indicating that they were FTR'd and all have serial numbers stamped on the rear of the bolt handles and, as mentioned in my previous post, no indication that serial numbers were ever stamped on the bottom of the bolt handles. Perhaps you are confusing the practice of stamping original serial numbers on the bottom of the bolt handles on the Pattern 14 Enfield rifles as being also a fact for the Lee Enfield rifles? |
| November 11th, 2012, 07:53 AM | #11 | |
Former Hoadpiler Location: Washington State |
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| November 11th, 2012, 08:04 AM | #12 |
Location: Southern Indiana | I know nothing about the various Enfield models, but to address your original question...I attended an auction yesterday in the inventory of 590 guns and ammo lots , they had Five Enfields, four of the five were Mod 4's. I didn't look at them as I have no interest in that rifle...but for your info, they all went for $180, except for one that sold for $210. I think it was the first of the Enfields to go up for bid. That will give you some idea of the auction value (in Indiana) as of yesterday. |
| November 11th, 2012, 08:19 AM | #13 |
Location: Hill Country of Texas | I don't have a Lithgow and I am unfamilure with their markings. Perhaps the stamping of the bottom of the bolt handle is only common to them. I can say that every other Lee Enfield I have examined at gun shows etc., have always had the rear of the bolt handle stamped with the serial number, but I must admit that it has never occured to me to examine the bottom of the bolt handle for stampings. I have Stratton's Volume 1 SMLE (No.1) Rifles MK I and Mk III and on page 22 the first paragraph regarding serial number placement states: 'Serial numbers are also often found on the rear of the bolt handle, on the bottom of the backsight leaf, on the nose cap, on the bottom of the fore-end (just behind the nose cap) and on the magazine. Serial numbers in these locations were not stamped at the factory; rather the were added in the field by unit armorers. Achieving proper chamber headspace often involved hand-fitting the bolt (actually, the bolt head) to a particular action body. In order to keep bolts from getting mixed up when a number of rifles were disassembled, armorers would stamp the action body serial number on the rear of the bolt handle . . .' This information refers to the No. 1s only and I don't know if the same applies to No. 4s or 5s but in any case, stamping the rear of the bolt handle doesn't appear to indicate that the practice was the specific action of a 'Factory Thorough Repair' but was done at the hands of unit armorers so that they could reassemble the rifle with its original parts when making field repairs on or cleaning a number of rifles at a time. Last edited by blackhawkfan; November 11th, 2012 at 08:32 AM. |
| November 11th, 2012, 08:30 AM | #14 | |
Location: Hill Country of Texas |
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| November 11th, 2012, 08:35 AM | #15 | |
Former Hoadpiler Location: Washington State |
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No4 Mk1 Enfield Serial Numbers
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